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201

Friday, March 14th 2008, 9:17am

:D

Its not my Vive must be dead or gone

Its the players, and he is either dead or he's not

The only way to satisfy both possibilities is to keep him out of the future (which is where we are)

His power, thats another story in itself, were did Vivec get his power
Lore says he was just a council of Nerevar until the time where he and the other Tribunal used the powers of the heart and tools to make themselves devine, once Nerevarine "destroyed" <(thats another issue in itself) he/she became mortal again

Did he/she create and Emmissary of his/her self ? Possibly

So option A is available


Enjoy
Bob
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202

Friday, March 14th 2008, 1:21pm

Ooooh - prevarication bob

You have just reclaimed your position re Vivec = your Vivec!

And to keep Vivec dead does not actually satisfy anyone except those who insist that they killed Vivec and just because he vas a god with powers beyond mortal comprehension gives no possibility he survived.

It never occured to such thinkers that they might have fought a simulacrum of Vivec? Or an imposter? After all who introduced you to Vivec?

Well they are entitle to insist that they play in such an outcome fo rthemselves, but I DID NOT KILL VIVEC - SO I INSIST HE IS ALIVE! ;)

Cor! Don'y I shout loudly?

There is only one way forward that can satisfy all semi-reasonable players - a quest that can establish either:
- the killing of Vivec by the Nerevarine or
- the continuing existance of Vivec.
With both options possible and scripts that support the different sets of outcomes and ongoing changes in the world that differ for either, including the possibility of seeing the dead body of Vivec or meeting the live Vivec and interacting with him.

The Emissary could be one route to achieve this. He/she could be Vivec or lead the player to Vivec's corpse.


Lost Godhood?
You insist that Vivec lost his godhood, but I think that if you read the Apochrypha then you would have seen that Vivec saw a sort of demi-god-hood for himself, and the intention to remain in the background and re-establish something more on the Ancient lines with Saints being the focus of belief.

What must be considered is the nature of the shrines ... here's my little theorie - they were mechanical artifacts that drew on belief and actions to turn the substance and spirit into a source of mana an dthen apply that in a new way according to whatever power/spell they were inbued with.

So when you pray to a Saint you receive that spell - despite the fact that the Saints were dead and did not manifest ... unlike the Tribunal members

And I wonder if they were Dwemer inventions? Or from what source both the Dunmer and Dwemer go them?

If this is true then maybe Vivec misled the player about the waining of the power of the Tribunal - so long as people go to pray at the Shrines he will receive a portion of power from their belief ... and maybe thus he inherited the power from the dead Tribunal members. That might make him stronger than ever.

Hows about the Heart was corrupt and was holding the Tribunal in thrall along with Dagoth Ur? Dagoth Ur was so power-hungry and sick that he could not see this. In this case Vivec would be desperate to be freed ... and maybe Azura saw his impending escape and moved to attempt to assassinate him before he could escape her wrath also?

Thus the Tools of Kagrenac that we have been told corrupted the Heart or the Power of the Heart may have done no such thing. They may have been draining to the user, but that is another matter ...

Then what Azura might have feared could be the power of the corrupt Heart Itself overwhelming Tamriel and even entering in to Oblivion, or her fellow Princes or th e9 discovering thetruth of the nature ofthe Heart andattempting to makeuse of it. In any case she would have lost worshippers if the corruption became so widespread, or universal ...

But this would need to be the subject of several Books an da lot of questing and discovery ... and whatever the player found or came to believe might still be a pack of lies that some being more powerful than the player placed there for serious reasons, or merely out of caprice :D

I will leave you with one last delicious thought. What if the real mature of the Heart was that, in order to become invulnerable to certain forms of attack, Azura placed Her own Heart in the Mountain, and the Dwemer's and the Tribunal's interference with it enraged and terrified Her?

The only way to safeguard it was to have it sent back to Oblivion and maybe then send it somewhere else. And that was accomplished by killing it?
Because loyalty is not to be spoken of and honour is to be endured. Whilst courage is to be survived. These virtues belong to silence.
Steven Erikson.

But, if one man does nothing can he be said to be good? raggidman

203

Saturday, March 15th 2008, 11:03am

Your reading way to deep into this

I agree with you 100% that it would make very interesting and wonderful quests, which I truly would enjoy

but the fact is simple

regardless of our opinions or ideas or plans, Bethesda thought it best to leave Vivec out of ES4 for the very reason I have mentioned

Simply: some players killed Vivec in Morrowind and some did not

thats really it, nothing more, its my opinion, right or wrong its how I feel about it

If we voted on having Vivec in ES4 I would say No

but thats me, you might vote Yes

others might vote no and some others may vote yes and whatever the outcome is that is the way it would go, regardless of the fact that we might not agree with the outcome

I know you would try to persuade a yes vote

I would not however try to persuade a no vote

Why? Because I don't care...NO Because I can't debate..NO because I have no Basis...NO

Actually its because Bethesda did it for me, if you look around ES4 their is no Vivec, he's allready been written out

you might even want to call it the "safe way out"

:D

Enjoy
Bob
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204

Saturday, March 15th 2008, 11:53am

I believe there is some justice in your viewpoint bob ... and Bethsoft's wishes are important. But I wonder just how concrete they are? ...and why? What are they, have they changed?

Since Vv is likely to connect very directly with ST and ST has a limited pro-adult content bias I imagine that a sophisticated character such as Vivec will be seen as more acceptable in this environment than in the Wii wee-wee environment of the consoles?

Natch, if I offered Bethsoft $100 million today to develope the whole of Morrowind including a live Vivec they would do - believe it! In fact for that money they would probably agree that Vivec could be the Player Character and make wild passionate love with Chancellor Occato and Azura in the same bed.

Back to the real world bob ;) Really I do not believe that Bethsoft have plans for Vivec one way or the other, and ST is no longer listed among their links, so we need not worry - they have had their Oblivion and eaten it. It has already gone the way they wanted it to, and beyond expectations. The monies have been invested and the star has had its day! Now it is a modest Cash Cow. They will not worry about what we do here. Actually there will be many among them (including shareholders) who would enjoy a Vv with a Vivec conundrum such as described, ... and a successful Morrowind with ST, Vv AND Vivec might actually stimulate controversy and more sales of Oblivion and Morrowind, without affecting their console contractual duties, so they will be delighted. That is why Razorwing was invited to interview for their Blog!

Business-wise this was a tiny investment with an unknowable but potentially pleasant pay-off. S~o, if you so desire, be freee, delight in great delights, mod and bedammed to Oblivion!
Because loyalty is not to be spoken of and honour is to be endured. Whilst courage is to be survived. These virtues belong to silence.
Steven Erikson.

But, if one man does nothing can he be said to be good? raggidman

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205

Saturday, March 15th 2008, 6:26pm

How about the son of vivec?

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206

Saturday, March 15th 2008, 7:16pm

:lmao: - I love it :bananarock: - but you will have to do some absolutely stupendous artwork, Lore research, etc, etc to convince the hard-nuts!
Because loyalty is not to be spoken of and honour is to be endured. Whilst courage is to be survived. These virtues belong to silence.
Steven Erikson.

But, if one man does nothing can he be said to be good? raggidman

207

Sunday, March 16th 2008, 12:15am

Quoted

Originally posted by raggidman
:lmao: - I love it :bananarock: - but you will have to do some absolutely stupendous artwork, Lore research, etc, etc to convince the hard-nuts!


hard-nuts!

That could quite possibly be me :D

A son ?
Interesting idea,
I suppose an offspring is not out of the question. not difficult, believable...yes ! Vivec was known to mate, the last off spring (?) that we know of is the Ruddy Man

What form would this new offspring take ?

Enjoy
Bob
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208

Sunday, June 22nd 2008, 10:32pm

I've just registered & sorry for my english ( i'm russian) but i didnot read all pages of this topic and i don't know did someone asked such questions already , so i wanna ask for myself:

1-will we meet Nerevarine life, i've heared he's gone to Akavir

2-i support your idea about that the Mehrunes' brother from another mother -- Molag Bal -- will lead the invation of Morrowind(Vavardenfell). But:
a) is it possible to meet Molag-boy as you have met Mehrunes Dagon

b) will character travel to his(Molag Bal's) oblivion plan(i've read somewhere that his world doesnt look happier than Mehrunes' : tombs&desert are everywhere, cages wiht captured souls etc.)

3-What role does YOUR OBLIVION CHAR playes in happening events on Vvardenfell (why da f*** he\she left calmed Cyrodiil and went to Dunmerett)
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Vavilion" (Jun 22nd 2008, 10:33pm)


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209

Monday, June 23rd 2008, 5:05pm

Hello everyone. Deeza from the Black Marsh Team here.

Just a few thoughts on looking at this thread:

Vavilion has a very valid point - the player who goes to Morrowind in your mod will be the person predestined to be the Champion of Cyrodiil. They may already BE the Champion of Cyrodiil. That adds a very different dynamic to your mod.

Also, why constrain yourselves to a definitive statement about Vivec?

Everyone in Morrowind will have different theories about him, and provided that the Player never actually meets Vivec in person, nobody gets annoyed. Of course, he could definitely meet with Vivec SPIRITUALLY, but was it really a conversation? Or a dream? Mortals in Tamriel come back as Ghosts, so it is almost certain that even Sotha Sil and Almalexia exist in some form. As long as you keep it deliberately ambiguous, nobody can complain, and it will add to the controversy and interest. For example:

The Reformed Temple's official line would be that the Tribunal gave their powers to the Nerevarine to enable him to defeat Dagoth Ur then withdrew from the Mundus, an explanation which allows them to save face.

Yet the hardliner fundamentalists prefer to believe the stories that the Tribunal were murdered by the Nerevarine, and believe that their ghosts guide them to vengeance.

The Imperial Cult constantly spreads the belief that he is dead, in order to convert more Dunmer and spread their religion.

The Mages' Guild is less sure. It is a matter of considerable philosophical debate for them.

Yagrum Bagarn, the Last Living Dwarf, has many theories, but no evidence. He says he would have to examine the Tools of Kagrenac to be sure, but the Nerevarine has them.

The Telvanni have no opinion on the matter. They never liked the Temple, and are happy to see it in disarray. As long as Vivec doesn't show his face, they don't care either way.

The Hlaalu have embraced the Imperial Cult, so it isn't an issue for them.

The Redoran are, according to unofficial lore from the developers, in the middle of getting their arses kicked by Mehrunes Dagon, so metaphysical questions are probably the last thing on their minds.

The common folk have mixed views, typically less extreme versions of the above views.
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210

Monday, June 23rd 2008, 5:39pm

Just popping in from Silgrad :D

There has been a lot of debate (11 pages of it :eek: ) on this topic, and it doesn't seem that much consensus was ever reached.

Should the Nerevarine be in the mod? let me recap the arguments for and against

- For
  • Players want some connection to Morrowind
  • The Nerevarine is supposed to guard and watch over Morrowind
  • He's amazing, and it would be cool to see him


- Against
  • The Nerevarine was different for everyone who played morrowind, there is no way to make "The" Nerevarine
  • People will get pissed off at an "incorrect" portrayal of the Nerevarine
  • Having the Nerevarine might overshadow the player's role in events
  • Lore does say he's in Akavir (thinly veiled excuse though it is)

As for your other questions, i'm not sure what the Vv team's plans are for Molag Bal's personal involvement, but that's reallllly far in the future anyways. I do believe that there were plans to have the player visit Molag Bal's realm of coldharbour, but most projects besides Balmora are not being actively worked on
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211

Tuesday, June 24th 2008, 2:04am

after that nifty little recap. (Thanks Seni! :goodjob: )

How about this....

Following the Oblivion crisis, Ocato recieves a plea from Vivec to help Morrowind from the Daedra who are still running rampant over there. When you arrive in Vivec, you are brought before Vivec, who tells you that there ARE no more Daedra, House Telvanni took care of them almost as soon as they arrived. However, other troubles are brewing, things that Vivec could not say in a letter. Helseth has slowly chewed away at House Indoril, but now he attempts to destroy House Telvanni. The Telvanni, being the bloodthirsty war-mongerers that they are, are planning to launch an invasion against House Hlaalu. House Hlaalu begins the conflict, when the son of the Archmagister Aryon is assassinated by House Hlaalu. Long before the war began, Vivec kicked all of the Houses out of the city. Now the city has become a stronghold of all those loyal to Vivec (mainly Indoril.)

King Helseth sends a messenger to the Lord Vivec, calling for aid. Vivec refuses, and the messenger proclaims that all who are not for Helseth are against him.

You are sent to meet with the Lord of House Redoran, nearly destroyed by Daedra, and offer them the hand of friendship. The return of Redoran to the great city is announced and they return to their canton.

Next is House Telvanni. Speak to Aryon, who having lost his son is already marshaling his troops to march on Balmora. You convince Aryon that Vivec is his ally, and he agrees to march against the armies of Hlaalu with you. The Army of Faith marches north from Vivec while the army of Telvanni marches east from Sadrith Mora. In an elaborate pincer movement, you wipe Helseth and the powers of Hlaalu from Vvardenfell. Aryon is mortally wounded in battle against Helseth, he is brought before Vivec, who restores him through unknown magicka. For saving his life, Aryon pledges himself to Vivec, who in turn establishes the Council of three. Redoran, Telvanni and Indoril, who sign a treatise to divide the land and respect the borders. After the treatise is signed, you can speak to vivec about what happened during the Dagoth Ur crisis and what happened as a result and then be on your way.


Well, there you are, my rant! :)

Hope you liked it.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Sabian" (Jun 24th 2008, 2:05am)


212

Tuesday, June 24th 2008, 3:33am

That's a really interesting idea for a main quest.

I think wiping house Hlaalu off the map completely would be a bit problematic though, both in terms of lore and scale.

Lore-wise, house Hlaalu is the most well-connected to the Imperials. Helseth was never more than an imperial puppet, so they'd most likely offer aid. Plus, Hlaalu has enough money to hire lots of mercenaries, and they'd likely stand a decent chance, considering that Redoran and the Tribunal have been waning, whereas Hlaalu has only been getting stronger.

I think the real problem is that a lot of players would hate to see Hlaalu destroyed. Many of them still consider Balmora to be "home", and it wouldn't be very nice if we just killed everything on them would it?

[just read all 11 pages of the previous main-quest thread]

It looks like most of the plans did in fact revolve around having a great house war, but nobody was actually destroyed from it. Then they can show the rising influence of whichever house won.

Also, the plan was to have the player join either Hlaalu/Imperials, Redoran/Temple, or Telvanni, and whichever house he joined would be the victor. There were also plans for Nords and 6th House, as well as some ideas for Argonian invasions, but that would probably be far too complicated.

Rest assured, your ideas are on the right track, maybe just a bit extreme what with the genocide of the Hlaalu :D

Other really cool ideas included having the Nerevarine only appear in dream-form, similar to the introduction to TES3 with Azura. If you put enough distortion into the voice, it could be any race or gender, and thus not a problem lore-wise. Vivec could similarly give the player instructions through dreams, because lore says he's disappeared, and the player did have the option to kill him in Morrowind and the expansions.
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213

Tuesday, June 24th 2008, 10:15am

Quoted

Originally posted by Seniosh
Vivec could similarly give the player instructions through dreams, because lore says he's disappeared, and the player did have the option to kill him in Morrowind and the expansions.


I think dreams are definitely the way to go. After all, even if he's dead, he will presumably still be able to communicate in some way with the living. Ordinary humans in Tamriel can for certain, so I think it would be even easier for a former living god.
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214

Tuesday, June 24th 2008, 5:36pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Seniosh
Just popping in from Silgrad :D

There has been a lot of debate (11 pages of it :eek: ) on this topic, and it doesn't seem that much consensus was ever reached.


None was ever reached, but I am happy to say it appears that the bunch of ya talking now are on the correct path


The Nerevarine can not be brought back in any physical form without lossing the intergrity of the game

He/She could be brought back in physical form if concealed by some type of magics or clothing which altered or covered the appearance, but only in a brief segement, if the nerevarine was left in game again it would undermine the prowers of our new champion.

I agree the best way is in dream sequence

but my only question which still remains after 2 years of discussion on this subject is WHY?

for what purpose does the Nerevarine need to be in TES4 Morrowind

Thier are a few Ideas floating around on this topic, the Cerro Vampires being one of them.

answer the WHY and the rest will fall into place, if its truly desired to have the Nerevarine in game

Then theirs the other half......Vivec :D


Enjoy
Bob
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215

Tuesday, June 24th 2008, 5:48pm

The only reason i see that the Nerevarine would be in the game is that Azura is watching over Morrowind, and the Nerevarine is Azura's champion, so it makes sense that he/she would act as Azura's hands and eyes in Vvardenfell.

However, this only really matters if we make Azura directly involved with the player, and especially if a daedric threat features heavily in the main quest (right now it doesn't).

In a Great House War, i see no need for the intervention of Azura, and thus not a whole heck of a lot of reasons why the Nerevarine would be involved.

The only faction which would really even have contact with the Nerevarine would be the ashlander tribes, and they aren't going to be a joinable faction it looks like, so that matters not anyways. You could add a rumor that the Nerevarine has been sending prophesies to the Ashlanders, and even have some quests to figure out what those are, but besides that there's not much use for him/her.
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216

Tuesday, June 24th 2008, 6:20pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Seniosh
The only reason I see that the Nerevarine would be in the game is that Azura is watching over Morrowind, and the Nerevarine is Azura's champion, so it makes sense that he/she would act as Azura's hands and eyes in Vvardenfell.

However, this only really matters if we make Azura directly involved with the player, and especially if a daedric threat features heavily in the main quest (right now it doesn't).

In a Great House War, I see no need for the intervention of Azura, and thus not a whole heck of a lot of reasons why the Nerevarine would be involved.

The only faction which would really even have contact with the Nerevarine would be the ashlander tribes, and they aren't going to be a joinable faction it looks like, so that matters not anyways. You could add a rumor that the Nerevarine has been sending prophesies to the Ashlanders, and even have some quests to figure out what those are, but besides that there's not much use for him/her.



Again you hit the nail on the head....The Ashlanders !

If their is going to be any intrevention from the Nerevarine it should be through the Ashlander Wise Women..

The thing is, regardless of the happenings in ES4 timeframe, Morrowind (Vvardenfell) has just recently gone through a major overhaul This would have to be delt with

If the Nerevarine Prophecies are followed then for at least a few years following Dagoth Urs defeat and Vivecs disappearance thier would be some major upheaval in the Tribunal Temple and the Great Houses

I would think that the Ashlander Tribes would attempt to rally more support for the Nerevarine and raise up the Nerevarine Cult

[Hypethetically speaking:

The Great Houses would be in shambles and the supporters of the Nerevarine would try to oust or kill the non supporters and the Great Houses, including the Dres and (naturally) what is left of Indoril would eventually re-unite under 1 banner.


thats just my take on it


Enjoy
Bob
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217

Tuesday, June 24th 2008, 6:32pm

Quoted

Originally posted by bob196045

I would think that the Ashlander Tribes would attempt to rally more support for the Nerevarine and raise up the Nerevarine Cult

[Hypethetically speaking:

The Great Houses would be in shambles and the supporters of the Nerevarine would try to oust or kill the non supporters and the Great Houses, including the Dres and (naturally) what is left of Indoril would eventually re-unite under 1 banner.


thats just my take on it


Enjoy
Bob


Are you saying all the great houses unite? Cause i know Dres, and Indoril would ally with the temple, and probably Redoran as well in a somewhat shaky alliance.

But i don't think Hlaalu and Telvanni would be in on it in a million years :shrug:

Anyways, the current ideas for the Great House Wars don't feature the Ashlanders prominently, as each tribe has a slightly different leaning house-wise, it would make it hard to have a united ashlander force.
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218

Wednesday, June 25th 2008, 5:34am

Quoted

Originally posted by Seniosh

Quoted

Originally posted by bob196045

I would think that the Ashlander Tribes would attempt to rally more support for the Nerevarine and raise up the Nerevarine Cult

[Hypethetically speaking:

The Great Houses would be in shambles and the supporters of the Nerevarine would try to oust or kill the non supporters and the Great Houses, including the Dres and (naturally) what is left of Indoril would eventually re-unite under 1 banner.


thats just my take on it


Enjoy
Bob



Are you saying all the great houses unite? Cause I know Dres, and Indoril would ally with the temple, and probably Redoran as well in a somewhat shaky alliance.

But I don't think Hlaalu and Telvanni would be in on it in a million years :shrug:

Anyways, the current ideas for the Great House Wars don't feature the Ashlanders prominently, as each tribe has a slightly different leaning house-wise, it would make it hard to have a united ashlander force.



Well technically they are all in it, the Nerevarine united the houses when he/she was named Hortator each house named him/her individually and as a whole to represent them in battle against Dagoth Ur

Each Great house has its own definition of what the Hortator is, and those definitions usually follow what the house practices in its believes

I agree it would be very difficult to get all the houses to come under one banner fully.

However I do believe that the followers of Nerevarine would make an effort to Unite the Houses, some of the high ranking members of the councils allready believe, the Ashlanders believe and the Dissident
Priests

Now considering that according to lore Morrowind is in civil unrest due to Helseths take over (this would make sense regardless of the reasons) either way it would be a perfect opportunity for those Nerevarine followers to make a stand for uniting against the Imperial controlled Helseth

Since the lore minded of Bethesda decided to leave it at that, it gives plenty of opportunity to write in your own story as to what happens next

Enjoy
Bob
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219

Wednesday, June 25th 2008, 9:54am

I get what your saying about Balmora. Perhaps Hlaalu is brought before Vivec, and found guilty. The verdict is that the Hlaalu must trade assets with Indoril. (Indoril gets all of Hlaalu's wealth and Hlaalu gets indoril's poverty.) the Hlaalu lose all share of Vvardenfell which is turned over to the Indoril. That way, Hlaalu isnt completely destroyed, but they are taken down a notch or 12. xD

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